Faith

[Geoff]

My dear brothers and sisters,

I have had the reaction from a number of people that my "Faith" is uncompromising and, to them, looks like any other fundamentalist.

Of course, I know how I feel inside, and I know that I am different to how I used to be, so many years ago, when I "believed" things. In fact folks often say - "Its just a belief" and I generally say - "No it's not, I know"

I don't want to appear as a dogmatic fundamentalist, but frankly, I do "know" as opposed to "believing" My normal reaction is to smile, and leave it there. I wondered if any of you have found yourself in a similar position, and developed a good way to resolve this.

Only last weekend, in New Zealand, I was having a great discussion with a half dozen folk, when one said to me, very good naturedly - "You and George Bush are the same" To which I said "No, I know" and amazingly the fellow seemed to understand. I did not want to go into soul knowledge vs mind beliefs, particularly since he was a psychologist, but afterwards I had a feeling he might have understood.

So my point in raising this is, I don't want to come across as a hard nosed uncompromising fundamentalist, but I won't compromise my Faith. I can't anyway. Is there a 'soft' option?

Much love,
Geoff.

[Digitaria]

Dear Geoff,

I am glad you shared your feelings, so many issues seem to be just about the now, and have no real importance.
I heard that you should always be able to give a good reason for the Faith you have in God and in Jesus. Because in doing so you are able to show them where and how you gained trust and faith in the Lord.

As for what you said about small minded people refferring to you as a fundermentalist then cool. These people look up to the pay cheque, the Jean Claudes Van Damme's of the world, the wealthy, or the gangster attitude. Tell them yeah, I'm a warrior for God.

I'm glad you noticed the difference between belief and faith. Faith comes with possession in your Soul, where before you were being taught by others and by what you have read. You are now becoming a teacher. Only those with Faith can teach the Divine Love, or if your only in your belief stage you should refer them and help them the best way you can according to their soul development. Extracts of the bible or the Padgett messages. You know to always mention the love, say that what you tell them, is for their benefit because you yourself have the Lord in your heart. You will sound like a snob who is proud instead of a fanatic. They might well ask you more questions. Where they were afraid they may become empowered. Especially the warrior angle. Most people understand the dark and are afraid of the light. You have to do what Jesus did too the fisherman, the apostles Paul and Peter. They were not getting results, yet that was there trade, they were experienced professionals yet no fish no catch.

Jesus said go out to a deeper depth, they probably said this is how we do it, the fish cant be found that deep or that far out, but there they were. What the fisherman were doing was not working so they tried something new. They got advice from someone they thought did not have a clue about fishing.

Change your tactics, take a different stance, take some simple advice and show your passion, show the love in you. The rest is up to you. This is something I have just discovered, so I will be adjusting the way I speak to people. What counts is getting the point across, not people saying how well or wonderful I am. Try and live only for God or another, depending on whether you are seeking divine or mortal love.

There will always be those which do not want to listen, you have to find away, the whole point is the DL message. If you have to speak in tongues do that, you dont have to teach them everything in one go, just enough to tell that Jah is you Saviour.

Much Love to You
Love your Spiritual Sister
Digitaria

[DTNguyen]

Hi Geoff,

What a "coincidence"! (Although, Judas said there is no such thing.) I had different dreams last night but don't remember all very clearly except the part about Faith. in that from the soul's perpective, at least the impression I got was that Faith has its own entity and that it was "measureable". I thought and re-analyze the dream this morning and at one moment in the dream where I had non of that Faith. It seemed as though my perspective was switched between my mind and my soul. It is as though the mind and the soul are very distinct from one another. Put it another way, the mind has none and can only believe. But the soul has the option to know if it so desires.

As for sharing the Divine Love with others, I try to speak on their terms and levels, then every now and then add provoking thoughts and questions. Many of our brothers and sisters (including me most of the time although I am trying) function at the mind or physical thinking level. I would just raise questions that I know the mind cannot comprehend nor understand, but slowly reveal contradictions from the beliefs of the mind.

I do believe that when we speak the absolute Truth (even if it was accidental,) the soul (living or dead) will recognize it and get stir within people. Some people may get agitated and this is good because it is a sign that "it" has been awaken to challenge the beliefs of their mind.

People have too high an ego that I no longer focus on them per se. My conversation will normally start out to gain the understanding that we are discussing a subject for more understanding beyond the comprehending level of the mind. It is no longer "your view point" vs. "mine", but "we" exchanging thoughts to gain something new. And into the conversation, some may step down a level because they want to hear more.

To continue from what Digitaria said about Jesus and fish, you will be the fisher of men.

And yes, I have been praying and believing that one day, I will no longer have to walk in believing that there is a God, but know Him well. And the choice is ours to make. From the dream that I had last night, Faith then is a degree of Divine Love we have obtained in our present soul condition.

With love.

[Amada Reza]

Dear ones,

Coincidentally (not!), a few of us were also recently speaking of faith vs. belief, and the "knowing" that we have within our souls. I concur with Do that when we speak with faith (with knowing) it stirs the soul. Soul communicates with soul, and as it happens between our soul and the Soul of God, so is it also between human souls.

Is there a "soft" option? I think not. It is disturbing to the mind, who likes everything nice and tidy, to think that there is some knowledge beyond its grasp. Ah, yes, our poor little ego. :-)

I remember something the angels told me: we are gifts to this world. Our love for God and our faith in Him is our gift, and so it becomes the world's.

In God's Love, I am your sister,

Amy

[Kay Ann Ray]

Hi Geoff,

I don't think that I really know of a "soft" option, but I've been told a similar thing about "preaching" as if I "know" (which I do feel that I know). So what I'm trying to learn is to accept my fellow humanbeings and give them the benefit of the doubt, and just love them where they are because they are children of God.

We all are learning, growing and changing; we do not know all the answers. Each individual soul is on his/her own pathway of spiritual evolution. The angels have explained that the best way we have of "spreading the Good News about the availability of God's Grace" is to EXEMPLIFY The Love in our lives.

Often it is hard for me to keep my-mouth-shut when I'm bubbling over to tell people about God's Love, but I need to learn to wait until someone wants to hear about It. Our "new" brother Victor S., expressed his attempt to tell his relatives about The Gift, and their response was, "That's nice dear, please pass the salt." Or he was told that it sounds like "a fairy tale."

I guess that each one of us needs to find a way which becomes effective in helping others see that *the Gift* is unique and special, but that will lend itself to sounding inflexible or, that horrible word, *Fundamentalistic,* just because we say, "we Know!"

One awareness that I need to acquire is to see myself as a babe-in-the-woods, knowing that I have a long way to go. I was happy to see that you appreciated the "Four Agreements." I feel that its principles can help us attain the "soft option" we want to portray. When we *do our best* in each of our outreaches, we can rest satisfied that if it dosen't work (in helping someone see the importance of prayer, for example) it isn't "our fault," but is up to that person to apply what we've tried to share, or not.

Keep up your good prayers, dear brother. I'm sorry that you are not going to attend the retreat at the end of this month. We are looking forward to meeting new friends on the Divine Love path and seeing old friends again.

With love, your sister in Christ, Kathryn

[Geoff]

Dear brothers and sisters,

Thank you for your thoughts. I think Kathryn and Amy understand what I am getting at here. It is not what you say, but the fact that you have an unshakable inner faith. And, I am heartened to hear that there is no soft option. I did not think there was. But, I don't really like to be seen as "inflexible" in anything.

Indeed as mentioned here, we have been told that often we touch people at a soul level, and they may be mentally unaware of this, but it has an effect. Indeed I read one message from an angel (another source) that said all we need to do is get close to folks, our souls will trigger a response, and they (the angels) will do the rest.

Much love,
Geoff.

[Jackie]

Dear Geoff,

I understand the faith vs belief dilemma. I have come to look on faith (knowing) as a gift from God. When I am presented with questions or statements concerning this "knowing", I remember these things:
...that the person or persons may have no conception of what I am talking about, that is, they are spiritually deadened.
...that one person's faith is different than another's. What you "know" I may not yet "know" and vice versa.
...that I was once under the impression that faith was a "belief of the mind." I did not even know I could pray for it!

Thus, I might have responses such as these.

"If you could walk in my shoes for a day and know my experiences, you would "know" also"

"Where I was once blind, now I see. This is what God does for me."

"I only "know" what God has written into my soul, and I am sharing it with you."

And ironically, what I find is a very powerful statement is saying nothing at all, but smile and let your eyes or demeanor say, "I know."

One attribute I aspire to is one of being humble, as well as knowing when to keep my mouth shut. For the urge to stand with fist raised saying, "I know this and I want you to believe me!", has no effect and in some cases "pushes away". Sometimes we love people so much that we desperately want them to "know" what we "know".

Patience, patience, patience.....

I hope I have helped in some way.
Love
Jackie

[Phil Jones]

I wish i could write like all you guys. You can definitely express yourself better than me. You all have written so much that I have found true to be about my personal situation. I sometimes feel guilty for not speaking up when i infact "know" better :) I go to church regularly because I enjoy the music and I regularly learn more about the Bible. It also makes my family happy when i go to church. But lately i have been torn with the comments and attitudes of the 'christians." i've heard preachers stand up in front of their followers and proclaim that the US should just "go in and take him out" referring to the killing of Sadam, another of God's children. i did voice my opinion at this even though it was a futile attempt. Now i am feeling that i should let the church go and put more effort into praying and "kything". (that thread/website touched my heart) But keeping my big mouth shut is the hardest thing i do but I "know" it is the wisest. my happiness is strictly determined by me--my thoughts, my attitudes, and my relationship with God. Keeping peace and harmony about me has become most important. I do believe that in seeking and receiving God's Divine love, all things will follow.

[victors]

In Afrikaans we have a couple of words "Glo"="Believe","Geloof"="Faith",("Loof"="Praise" slightly unrelated),"Oortuiging"="Belief". We also interchange it without added real meaning to it. Without the concept of God's Love all the words have the same meaning. Its like I then understand the issues at hand if someone asks me a question like:"Is the sun the bigger than the earth?", the reply will be "yes". Knowledge makes things believeable. "Is the center of the world green?", "I don't think so because it is hot there".

"Will you go to heaven?","Hmm" compared to "Will your mother allow you in the house tonight, even if you are drunk?","probably yes". When love is involved the meaning between belief and faith starts to differ. If you arrive 2 hours late for work you might believe you won't be fired because you are too important to the company or you will have faith that your boss loves you (in whatever form) enough to forgive this 'sin'.

Sometime people say I have faith, I believe !! I believe !!, but they can't tell you what they believe. Some Muslims believe they go directly to heaven and will receive 70 virgins if they die as a martyr. Is this faith or belief? The question is if there is love involved. Your spouse is suppose to be faithful (so are you) because of love. The same goes for Divine Love. But be carefull this is something that I almost did (and still do). The faith is in God, my love is for God. God gives us 'power' (and much more) in the form of Divine Love. Although faith is interconnected with Divine Love our faith should always be directed to God and not the power that Divine Love gives us. Faith gives you comfort, it is knowing that you are loved and safe. Belief is a running chance that something will go alright because you think you know the odds.

Just as an ending I will quickly give you some background on a Muslim belief. (Quickly, because I believe my wife is going to kill me if I am late tonight...)

I HOPE I DON't OFFEND ANYBODY...

Like I said the Muslims believe they go directly to heaven and receive 70 virgins if they die as martyrs. Mohammed 'wrote' the koran about the 6th century. But, in the 4th century a Christian writer wrote a book on his views on how wonderful heaven should be. He elaborated on the wonderful foods like dates and raisins that you receive when you enter heaven. Remember that this it is purely fictional. The raisins, the important part of this story, was described as being white raisins. It is believed that this book was adopted by early Muslim writers and that it was integrated in their belief system. Now the Arabic name for these pure white raisins was 'Hori'. BUT another pure entity is also called by the name 'Hori' and that is a pure virgin. So, what will you rather believe, as a fierce Muslim fighter, if you die fighting and killing the enemy? Do you want to receive 70 measely white raisins (hey, might taste good) or 70 virgins when you were only allowed to have up to 4 wifes?

I believe I am late now, my wife is going to kill me and there will be nothing left to eat.

Good bye

Love you all

Victor Schutte

[Jackie]

Dear victors,

Are you okay? Was there some food left (perhaps a few raisins}?

I so enjoy reading your posts. Do linger with us brother. There is much serious talk here on our forum and today you have come in like a breath of fresh air. Incidentally, my husband gets so engrossed in the war news that I can hardly capture his attention. I almost told him last night, "I am your Commander-in-Chief and you will do what I say!"

It's good that you know who is the "Commander-in-Chief" of your household. I just hope she doesn't kill you.

In good fun,
Jackie

[doug]

Originally posted by Kay Ann Ray
Hi Geoff,

I don't think that I really know of a "soft" option, but I've been told a similar thing about "preaching" as if I "know" (which I do feel that I know).

Kathryn and I were discussing this the other day, and I'll take this opportunity to try to clarify the concept I was trying to express to her. I think it is healthy for us to differentiate between that which we Know (with a capital K) and that which we are 95 percent sure of (we know it, but wouldn't necessarily bet the farm on it). Again I'm going to refer back to William James, who drew the distinction between an authentic personal religious experience and the "overbeliefs" which we acccept as "true" simply because they are presented to us in the same package with our religious experience.

In other words, we read the Padgett messages, pray for the Love, have a personal experience of the Love, and thus conclude that the entire Padgett writings are true and correct.

My point is that this conclusion is an assumption, and we all know what trouble assumptions can get us into.

Of course, this topic is far more complex than that, because, using the example of the Padgett messages, we have many valid reasons for believing that much if not most of the information contained in them is in fact true and accurate. But the point is that, for many of us, the only personally experienced proof of the Padgett teachings is our experience of God's Love -- most of the rest we are accepting as true based upon the testimony of others (Padgett and/or the spirits writing through him).

Realizing that we could write a book on the topic of that last paragraph, I'll just say that, regarding Geoff's original comment, I think there is great power in our being able to look someone in the eye and say, "yes, I know that God's Love is real." And I think we can say this without having to go "fundie" by then proceeding to defend the entire Padgett/Samuels writings as divinely inerrant, etc. etc.

I think that we actually gain credibility by demonstrating our own ability to make the distinction between what we "tentatively know" and what we absolutely Know. And when we can speak of what we Know, gently, but with absolute assurance, then we are performing one of our happiest duties as disciples of Jesus.

Blessings,
Doug

[Geoff]

Dear Doug,

You make a good point, but I was not in this case actually discussing anything detailed. And indeed, I apparently project a great sense of self "belief", even when I am keeping things very simple.

For example, I would add to the things I know, based on personal experience:

the existence of spirit - life after death
the existence of God's Love
the existence of my soul
the fact that there is something other than my mind which seems to be able to receive stuff - I assume it is my soul
the existence of spiritual "energy" in a number of forms
that I am not the same person I was a few years ago - something is changing me

Now I don't think that five years ago I could have ticked any of those off. Well, maybe the first, but not based on much personal experience.

What happens, I think, is one's passion is recognised by those that you are with, and sometimes it frightens them. Certainly it is a challenge to them. I don't think I have ever "argued" that someone should accept that Padgett is right. It is much more basic than that. I don't think I ever mention him, because I don't see the messages as "proof". I see the personal experience of God's Love as proof. But I have had folks tell me that is psychsomatic. And I generally give up then.

Much love,
Geoff.

[Geoff]

Originally posted by victors
Sometime people say I have faith, I believe !! I believe !!, but they can't tell you what they believe.

Dear Victor,

It is cute to read Afrikaans phrases, after so many years. You may be amused that yesterday, my sister finally got Australian permanent residency, after a process that has taken I think seven years, and a couple of different visa classes, and lots of money.

Regarding Faith and Belief. This was one of the very first questions I asked the angels, when I found the Padgett stuff. Because in the past, I understood faith was what bridged the gap - if it was impossible to understand, then faith crossed the gap for you. So, for example, virgin birth.

The angels explained that belief is of the mind, and Faith is of the soul. But that does not mean a whole lot, till, after a few years of praying for Divine Love, and having awakened your soul, you start to feel the difference. Their meaning of Faith is quite different to the conventional understanding, and there are some good "newer" messages on the subject on my web site.

Much love,
Geoff.

[DTNguyen]

My dear brothers and sisters,

I was reading about the unified field theory and was side-track to Faith Love and Believe. These words we have used many times and to me they are still not clear. Then I got up and wrote on my white board so as to come back to it later. I wrote it as follows.

Love -- Faith -- Believe

... then I thought about it and continued as follows.

Love -- Faith -- Believe
! ! !
God -- Have -- Witness/Experience

Love, Faith and Believe is the same as Have Experienced God or Have God. As a result, there is a direct relationship between Divine Love and Faith, of which we already know.

This may not be new to some of you. But I feel very happy and ... can't seem to really describe my feeling. Excited and happy! :-)

In His Spirit of Love.

[DTNguyen]

The post did not show correctly. However, the exclamation marks as lines connecting between Love and God, Faith and Have, and Believe and Witness/Experience.

[Jackie]

Hi Do,

This is cool! I'm playing with it, moving words around, changing words etc. Here is mine.

Pray Seeing God
for is is
Faith Believing Love

What do you think?

Love jackie

[Jackie]

Well, they didn't line up right. But it was fun!
jackie