New Birth -expected results...

[victors]

Hi everybody

I have been to many different churches, even a synagogue, had deep discussions with muslims but the what stands out the most of them is the charismatic churches. In my orthodox church you are baptized when you are still very young (few months). You also then believe that this is forever.

However, I was invited to go to church with some of my friends in my first year. Only when we arrived I noticed it was the Rema church. Many things went through my mind. I used to copy (illegally) Jimmy Swaggard video sermons, to and from VHS and Beta, for one of my friends who had a spiritual video shop. I saw, what I believed was, hype. During this time a few evangelists, working on the same principle, had a big tent in a neighboring town. People flocked. The kids loved it because they were taken to the back and received sweets and had the time of their lives. The adults listened and got swept up that they would do anything the preacher asked. Our one friend J.N. was filled by the 'spirit' and so happy. He told us that people over there are so giving that some will place their entire wallet on the plate during collections. J.N. was eventually so filled that his house was empty. His appararent choice was easy, God or poverty. Well he recovered financially but the rest is also clear. I don't think you will ever get them back to any kind of church or religion again.

So as I was sitting at the Rema service people got up and told about their visions. Everybody would get very excited. If the person said, "I just saw Jesus at the door " one of the preachers would second it and the praising would continue. When the collection plate went round it was packed with money. I was broke (student) so I gave nothing. Then they asked that everybody that wants to get baptized, i.e. want to be new born, must get up and go to the back where this will take place. My friends asked me to go with them and I refused, saying I was baptized when I was a baby, and do they expect me to insult God by getting a 'refresher' because my baptism wore off?

Well, it was a long wait for my friends (had no transport). My roommate and his girlfriend, Q & J, came back but I could see J was disappointed, very disappointed. I asked her what was wrong. She kept on mumbling that they asked her what spiritual gift she would like to receive and she said the wants to speak in tongues. Well she had even problems speaking English as a 2nd language and could definitely not speak anything else.

The problem was that they promised the new 'new borns' that the Holy Spirit will endow them with a spiritual gift, like speaking in different unknown languages, healing people etc... But nothing happened. I think that this session hurt J more than anything else. I never heard her talk about any religious or spiritual topics anymore. Her boyfriend told her that the gift will take time to come into effect but she wanted instant gratification.

I did not ask if they charged money for this ceremony, nor did I want to say anything bad against the Rema church because they may do much more good than bad. It was not (and still is not) my place to judge or condemn them.


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The problem and solution here is now apparent after more than 10 years. When the desciples received Divine Love at the Pertacost ('so-called' pouring out of the Holy Spirit) they got it in such abundence as to force a physical new-birth still in living bodies. Last week some of you told me that celestial angels have the ability to speak most languages in the world and can learn a new one in a couple of minutes. Also with a certain degree of Divine Love you can perform healing.

So they unknowingly tried to do 'good' (from the church's side) by doing what they thought was the right 'procedure'. Q and J excepted that the 'procedure' was going to be performed on them with certain known results, some visible, some not.

AS A SIDE story to this I want to tell you about my brother-in-law, R, again(love him to pieces...). Yes the guy with the stroke. He is a nice dude, but sometimes you can switch the TV off as he is just as entertaining... My wife and I moved into an old house in Centurion, near Pretoria. The house had a big pool, full of green water and black algae. It had an automatic Baracuda pool cleaner. Now the thing about these pool cleaners and water pumps( especially this one) is that all the air pockets must be removed so that the system works properly. Now, I have been battling with this pool for the whole morning, trying to get the air out, trying not to get stung by a bee etc... Now enter R. Sometimes he can speak with such authority that you actually start to believe him. He looked at the pool and the automatic cleaner and told me to move over so that he can help me, because he knows exactly what to do. I looked at his partially paralyzed left side and he told me not to worry as he had watched his father fix theirs for years and knows what to do. So I moved over. NOW, the pump is ON, the cleaner is in the pool. R walks up the the cleaner, pulls it out of the water, air rushes in and before I can get to the pump (about 7 meters away in the bush, forgetting about possible bee stings, to which I am highly allergic) to switch it off it has already filled up with more air than ever before.

The bottom line here is that he saw his father doing it, by example. What he saw and what actually happened was two different things. If you are an alien from another planet looking at a picture of a docter cutting the cord after a child is born you might think humans get born using scissors. Just imagine the terror if this same good helpfull alien now has to assist a woman in labour. (It might be your next door neigbor's kid, or the docter that never concentrated in class.)


Our problem, as humans, are that we misinterpret cause and effect. Jesus went though 30 years of developent. His desciples had firsthand tutoring for quite some time. Their followers probably also got some serious development. As time goes on people looked for the quick fix. The quick dip in the water, followed by a few words and now you are endowed with invisible wings, new born something and inheritor of the eternal life to boldly go and do anything you want because God, you don't know, has by the power of somebody elses example given you diplomatic immunity and power beyond your wildest dreams.

.....
Thinking back. J was probably thinking that God did not love her. The problem was that she never asked God for the Love, only the fringe benefits that Divine Love brings.

Sometimes I think we are not what we think, we are who we follow...

Love you all

Victor Schutte

[Jackie]

Dear Victor,

"Sometimes I think we are not what we think, we are who we follow..."

One day when I was trying to explain to my mother, (miserably I might add) to describe my "new" belief system instead of the old orthodox beliefs on which I had been raised and subsequently discarded, she said, "Oh, I just go by what your dad says."

I wanted to say (but didn't), "Do you not realize that salvation is an individual matter between you and God? Dad will not save you from sin, neither will the preacher man, not even Jesus, his blood, or belief in his name."

How easy it is to sit in the shadows of contentment believing our salvation is assured because someone says so, often because that someone has gone to great lengths to prove or convince that it is so.

Yet, "As a man thinketh, so is he," is true also. For all things experienced, observed, told to us, etc. are absorbed and at some point thought on. We then draw our own conclusions and this makes up the unique individual we are.

But on another note, brother, I have a challenge of discovery for you and one I am taking myself. It may help you and myself to better understand the "gifts of the Spirit."

What is the difference between the Holy Spirit and the Spirit or Spirits of God? Is there more than one? What are their functions?

Begin here: http://www.new-birth.net/ntr/revelation6.htm

Have fun!
Love jackie

[doug]

Dear Victor,

I'm enjoying your posts a lot -- thanks for your insights! I've never spent much time in Christian churches, and it is interesting to hear your take on what is going on with them. You seem to have a "gift" of clear soul's perceptions, and your observations seem (as the Aussies say) spot on.

The reported story in Acts of the spontaneous healings performed by the disciples is an interesting one, and certainly causes many of us to wonder why we aren't performing these works after years of consciously praying for the Love. My only the theory is that, as with Jesus himself, there was probably an army of spirit helpers facilitating these healings, with the express purpose of giving a tangible and dramatic validation of the divine love teachings. It was a "push start" for the divine love movement, but not necessarily something that we can duplicate on a daily basis.

In its "normal running mode," the divine love seems to work more slowly and personally, as we each learn to heal ourselves, not in a flamboyant public act, but in a slow, deep, and permanent way. Perseverance, then, becomes an important virtue on the divine path. That, and the most dreaded of virtues, patience... ;)

Doug

[Geoff]

Dear Victor,

I do believe that many of those attending charismatic churches do experience the presence of the Holy Spirit, and the inflowing of Divine Love. You are probably unaware of a message we have that said something like 40% of people have experienced some Divine Love. I can't remember the details.

In fact, in a number of cases, Jesus recommended that Padgett attend these charismatic churches, because of the presence of the Holy Spirit. But we have also been told they have many attendant lower level spirits who can trigger these apparitions and such like things to the amusement of all.

They are also pretty close with their idea of rebirth. Their mistake comes thinking that it is instantaneous. Given that we mortals take nine months to incubate a baby, followed by maybe 18 years of education, one wonders how or why they would think you can be spiritually "reborn" instantly. And so it is. It takes pretty much a lifetime of praying for rebirth, unless you were born without sin, and genius levels of spiritual appreciation. We only had one of those.

much love,
Geoff.

[victors]

Geoff

I tend to agree with that, because if I look at the 'life' at my family's church it is supprising to find beating hearts there. The last sermon I heard was about traitors, betrayal etc... He flamed Judas for the entire sermon. I wanted to shout out "Hey, he is OK now, God has forgiven his sins, have you ??", But then I would have woken up some of the churchgoers and you can't have that.

So, no, I can't judge charismatic churches, and in a certain way I agree more with them than my orthodox church. Why do I still go? Family. They still think that is part of the ticket upstairs. Just when I think I am breaking through to my wife she says that it is important to go, so I go along to be with her.

In my previous church (even more strict and dead) they were more worried about money and contributions than the people. We had two instances where we decided to leave that church. The 1st was when they decided it would be best if they deducted the agreed-upon contribution directly from my father's bank account via a debit order. I don't know how they did it but one month they managed to deduct about 4 months worth. My parents were generous and 4 x generous meant deep in overdraft and no food money. When my mother contacted the church to ask them to give the money back, because we were really in deep financial waters, the person replied that they cannot, but if we are really hungry they will send someone to bring us some food. Needless to say the debit order thing was cancelled. The next and last problem was when they called my mother and told her we skipped a payment (and that we must catch up). Payment refers to things like your car and house. So she asked the treasurer if we are paying for our ticket to heaven. That was the last. Also, people also stole money internally. My mother had a home business as a dressmaker. She was always paid cash and she took a 1/10 and placed it in a big glass bottle. One of the church sisters had the responsibility of collecting (separate) contributions from the woman. When the bottle was full, after 2 or 3 months, she would call her to collect it. One day the minister called as asked my mother why she does not contribute to the church only to find out that somebody was taking it before the church could take it. Eventually we deduced that we could not afford to be Christians anymore.

Another side story... The same lady who swiped the money came by the one day to find my mother in discomfort. My mother's abdomen was swolen. She had a benign tumor that was going to removed a while later. However, she made a joke that she was pregnant and just laughed about it. She had an historectomy when I was about 3. This simple story ended up at the minister which was blown up to demonic possession. They will jump in and assist in the jucy stuff but when you really need help or a shoulder to cry on you can forget it.

My church (group of related churches) believes that everything has been pre-ordained. Some will go to heaven and the rest will go to hell. And then they discriminate against the Jehova's witnesses. So if two equally nice people are 'judged' one day, the one might be accepted and the other one might burn in hell for all eternity. A big sinner might be forgiven and go to heaven and a mother Theresa type person will not fit into God's scheme of things and also go to hell and burn. Its like writing an exam, passing but you fail because the professor does not like you. So they actually teach that God selectively loves and hates people. Then you are expected to live as pure a life as you can , but on the other hand you are taught that good deeds alone can't get you in heaven. Try to speak to one of my fellow churchgoers and you will find the fear of God, satan, hell and the internal revenue services in them. The picture that I get is that they just pray that God does not whack them directly into hell when they die, like you wish you pass the exam because although you tried to attend all classes, brought the teacher an apple and studied hard you still don't know if it was good enough. HAVE I MENTIONED LOVE ANYWHERE ? No, because what does love help if you tried your best and God did not want you in the first place. What does it help proclaiming your love to the beautiful girl down the road if you only have less that 50% chance of success. People live in fear, the wrath of God. Some live with the opposite theory. If God does not love me and I go to hell in anycase then enjoy life. To hell with everybody. I will steal, murder and sleep wih as many people as I want (and with AIDS around it is the same as murder). But if God does love me I will be forgiven and go directly to heaven, where the party will continue.

So in Christain societies you get your stiff scared Christian. The "open your zipper, go to hell, think of opening your zipper, go to hell". These people live in such fear that the concept of God's Love rather turns into longing for mercy. It analogous to your kids running heads down from the house in fear of you going to beat them to death when you just said:"hi, how is it going?". The opposite is the fearless kid that does everything wrong because he expects his father to beat him senseless in the evening because him mother tells him constantly "just wait until your father gets home...."

As a new father you expect that you have to maintain order and discipline. Hey my son is naughty. He now 2 years old. He is huge, about as tall as an average 3 1/2 year old. He is going to a school 3 times a week where he is the yougest (the youngest kid is older than 3). So when he is naughty I am expected to give him a serious spanking. And last year I did. The one Sunday he went downstairs and (after previous spankings) got hold of a bottle of cleaning fluid, made a big mess on the floor and almost drank some of it. When I got hold of him it was the END OF DAYS... But the spanking didn't help. Then December, after starting to pray for Divine Love, I changed my attitude. Don't think he doesn't get a whack on the bum every so often, but I changed my attitude. If he accidently drops and breaks something I will scold him, but then pick him up, hug him, and tell him "Its OK, it also happened to me". It is like he is now taking on shared responsibility for things. Not only has my life changed but my kids as well. His cousin is about a month older than him and it makes me nervous when that boy is in the house( his father beats him for just about anything). My son is now even (very vocally) telling and showing his little sister (1 year old) what not to do. So what is the difference between hitting the life out of the child (not that I ever did that) or lovingly explaining to them it is wrong, but at the same time allowing him to make mistakes. The current mistakes are costing me less than the big things he would have broke if he carried on like before.

How can we explain to people that we are like God's children, physically His children. But in the living world we place ourselves under the guidance of religious groups and that these groups emotionally beat us to death, threaten us with pain, make us do things we don't want to do. During this process we, emotionally, cannot ask God to 'pick us up and hug us'. Without this growth we cannot learn what sin is and how to avoid it.

We are so busy trying not to do sin that we overlook what sin really is. Formal religion teaches us step by step what each sin is. In my first church we were forbidden to dance (serious!). Because dancing leads to sex, and sex is a sin and when you sin you go to hell. Later I will give my opinions and views on what I believe sin is.

The 'nice' thing about the charismatic churches is that they do not try and scare you (unless you think they are very,very weird). When they go "Thank you Jesus, praise the Lord, you saved, you are a new born Christion and will go heaven" they actually make people feel better. Some of them also want to sell you the quick ticket to heaven , but at least you don't suffer psychological problems of fearing hell every waking moment of the day. At a charismatic church you can go weird and people will accept you. At an orthodox chuch you go weird and the elders will bring darkness over your life.


Again the bottom line is, no matter how much waffle I write, love especially Divine Love. It warms, removes fear, brings faith and brings understanding to those who have it.

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As an ending... Always watch out to whom you give power over your life. As a society we choose our goverment, choose local town counsels. On a personnal level you choose your partner, job, friends and religion. I think no matter which goverment party you vote for you will still be unhappy with them. You have more control over the things closer to you. Sometimes you give power to people and institutions that are only supposed to be support structures to you which eventually control your life(if I tell my wife "I am sick, please help me", she is going to stick me in bed and keep me there until she thinks I am better, and no ice cream). We tend to give religious leaders the same power. They should be there to propagate the Love of God. Instead they fill people with fear, because they to don't know all the answers. It is like asking a 10 year old to drive you to town in your car because you have forgotten how to drive and he looks pretty confident on his bicycle.


Until later

Love you all.

Victor Schutte

PS. Jackie, I am still busy with your question. It is a touchy one I think best described in the Padgett messages, but I have plenty of other documents ranging from Urantia, letters from church fathers, pieces from the Secret Doctrine and even references to ancient Hindo scripture which refers to the seven creative spirits that created everything. BTW. Elohim is a plural. It is many times used as the name of God, but is refers to more than one.

I just like to think of God as God,the Father. It is like someone is refering to you as " Here comes Jackie, and Jackie's left foot, and Jackie is touching the table with Jackie's hand by the power of Jackie's though(now referred to as The Thought)...Followed by a greeting, Hi Jackie's hand and Jackie". I am not flaming you. I would still like to know what you have found and realized.

What I do know is that God is al-knowing. When I speak to God His Spirit, Essence, Personality, Holy Spirit, Elohim(s) and all His Attributes (is)(are) listening to me like you would when you turn around and listen to me when I speak. I try not to define God as He is the creator and I am His creation.

Lets make a date in 101 years from now to discuss this again. 100 years from now is already booked by several people.

[Amada Reza]

Dear Victor,

Here's a big hug from your sister who loves you and believes you are a wonderful child of God (I will reserve "knowledge" to after meeting you). :-) Sometimes when I pray I can feel God hugging me with His/Her Love - it lets me know that everything will be OK. There is hope for the world yet.

The first sin we commit is the sin of not loving ourselves as God loves us. This sin is committed very early when someone we love and trust says or does something that makes us doubt our loveableness. I do not believe in original sin now, but as a devout Catholic child I tried too hard to make up to God for my unworthiness. It has taken me half a century to let go of that habit ... still working on it.

Your children are very fortunate to be given the chance to know they are OK. I did my best with Celestia, Lovey, Happy and Luke, and they seem to be OK :-) They are adults now (whatever that means). I'm giving myself permission not to feel like I "owe" them a perfect life. I love them, and that will have to be enough, as in truth it always has.

Much love to you, your wife, children, parents, in-laws, cousins, fellow church-goers, etc.

Amy

[victors]

Amy

It is difficult to 'know' somebody. People give off personal vibes, even in their emails. I read through the trance messages of 1999 and 2001. I especially looked at Doug and Geoff (Hi guys, (same people?)). The trance messages were transcribed from tape (? saw one part had distortion on tape). The other information comes from the bulletin board. From that you can form a personality picture. I am not going to say what I conclusion I formed but I guess Doug and Geoff won't be the kind of guys to pull a gun in a liquor store. In the same way people form pictures in their minds about me. It is sometimes interesting when you leave out details about your life. My one teacher thought I was an artist, some people refer to me as "yes you musicians/computer/engineer types". BUT AMY, never, has anyone referred to me as a "wonderful child of God". Yes, and even if you don't really know me, I would always like to be one (and seen as one) of those as well. Thanks.

Now that you mention knowledge. Knowledge is a strange thing. Just when you think you know everything you surprise yourself a year later, thinking "gee, was I stupid?!". I think I am now at the point where I am knowledgeable to know that I don't know everything. But the scary thing is when you realise that you don't know really that much, and last year you made it appear that you knew everything, you actually made a big fool of yourself. Progressing through life and observing this makes me understand the concept of spiritual progression much better. In the condition that I am at the moment I don't think I will ever stop learning ad growing.

My one friend, Frans, plays the guitar beautifully. At one stage at school, after becoming quite talented playing the guitar, he made a statement that I will never forget. He perceived a slowing down in the number of new songs and looking at 12 notes per octave he said "I think all the music that could have been written has already been written" (sounds similar to the patent office story in the early 1900's). We had a file of about 300 songs we could play and everything started to sound the same. He felt that the only songs left were these repetative 'boom,boom' techno music. That was in the 80's. Since then the world has been 'rocked' with at least 16 years of additional music and it looks like it is never going to stop. And also understanding some mathematics about the different combinations and permutations of musical notes it looks like you can write infinite music if you develop far enough. I once wrote a song(piano only) (1998) a few days before I left my girlfriend, after 7 years(won't go into that). I wrote it to her directly and it manifested what I felt in my heart at that time. It was recorded one shot, with errors, and I made a CD, included a amethyst (which I painfully cut and polished myself) and a rose and delivered it to her office. We broke up and we only started speaking to each other in 2001. We are now best of friends(only). The song, however (simple and with all its errors and flaws), is so sad that I can't listen through it. Most people listening though that one CD of mine stop and stay silent at that song, some even want to cry. It is like a picture of me crying. How can a non-living song contain so much emotional pain and sorrow? How can you give the seemingly dead some form of life?

We have been designed to grow, develop and perfect. If there is no stopping music, with only 12 basic notes, then where are our limits. Even without Divine Love the natural man has created and developed far beyond all possible evolution propabilities. Where does our limits end if Jesus, who was born perfect, is still developing after 2000 years.

I see the new-birth as a point where you flip over to a next level. It has now become my primary goal, but once I have reached it I know that there is still infinite growth possibilities.


When I have the chance I will write down what my new perceptions are surrounding sin and what I is to me. But unfortunately I have to continue with my weapons development project so I can feed my family. If I can ask for one prayer you can pray for me that will be that I will be freed from military weapons development. Divine Love and manufacturing of death machines are NOT in harmony.


With my heart and soul, love to you all.

Victor Schutte

[Amada Reza]

Hi Victor,

I was speaking with a couple friends last night about there being no "original" music, but that it is artist's soul that elevates a piece to originality. It appears that you have captured in your CD something that evokes deep feelings from the listener. Does true art lead the soul to true knowledge? Is this where we recognize one another on a level not limited by time and place?

I agree that the Divine Love opens up for us another dimension to our creative potential. No boundaries, ever. :-)

I pray that your guardians will help you see your way out of weapons development. As your free will becomes aligned with God's Will through prayer, the chances are high that you will succeed.

All my love to you and your family, dear brother,

Amy