The Inner and Outer Christianity

[doug]

Over the years I've noticed a certain tension in the Divine Love movement between the ideas of an inner "private" religion and an outer public one. Not only do I notice it in our community, I also notice it within myself.

On the one hand, I think most people who have embraced the divine love teachings realize that the inner religion is ultimately the only one that matters. God sees what is in our heart, regardless of what we show to the world, and ultimately our relationship with God is inherently -- and profoundly -- private and personal.

On the other hand, here we are in the world, surrounded by myriad religions and permutations of religions, each exerting an influence on the nature and quality of life on earth. As we survey these various religions, we can observe influences that appear constructive and positive, as well as influences that appear destructive or negative. We each, no matter where on earth we live, are unavoidably influenced by these religions.

I've mentioned before that it seems typical for newcomers to the divine love movement to want to initially concentrate on their "inner religion," to nurture it as one would a tiny seedling, protecting it from excessive onslaughts from the elements. I'm sure we'd all agree that this is often a wise course of action, especially when we consider the ferocity of the attacks which some of us have weathered in response to our attempts to share our newfound spiritual awakenings with the world.

I'm not overly surprised, then, when I note that many followers of the divine love teachings seem to be still "in the closet" regarding their religious convictions. Over the years I've received many e-mails from people expressing frustration over their complete inability to share their discovery of the divine love with even their closest friends – their spouse, parents, and children – and so I can well understand why many would finally just give up on attempts at an “outer religion,” and content themselves with simply praying for the love, and "radiating it" into their world.

Certainly there's no blame in such a strategy; in fact for many of us it may be the best strategy, given our circumstances and condition. Still, when I imagine looking at the situation from God's perspective, I sense that He is essentially still waiting for Jesus’ Good News to be proclaimed to all His children. In fact, it says as much in the Padgett messages.

Now from God's perspective, I'm sure 2000 years is no big deal. Just a slight delay, we could say. God's will is persistent, we can be sure, and if a human being is capable of incredible stubbornness, we can trust that God is too.

So I'm guessing that God is waiting patiently. Waiting for us to come out of the closet and shout the Good News from the rooftops. Or from the Internet, or from wherever else we can think of. If there's a two or three thousand year delay in the accomplishment, that's OK. Time is on His side.

But meanwhile back at the ranch, here we are in “human time,” watching human lives destroyed by one religiously motivated war after another. Small wonder that John Lennon wrote in his song Imagine "…and no religion too." It's not a pretty picture from our perspective, and I'd guess from God's as well.

So what can we in the divine love movement do about the state of the "outer religions" of the world? Well, for starters I'd suggest that we could recognize that there is a "Divine Love Movement,” and that there is a need for this movement, and that we are a part of it.

We could acknowledge that there is a place for "organized religion" in the world, at least for now. We could recognize that organized religion as it now exists is often as much a cause of suffering as it is a solution – that something is indeed broken, and does indeed need to be fixed.

We could at least envision that someday we will feel safe to come out of the closet and proclaim to our family, friends, neighbors, and fellow church members our convictions about the reality and nature of God's Love.

In doing this we will hopefully never err by putting the cart before the horse, expecting this outer religion to somehow create the real religion that can only exist in our soul. Rather I would hope that this outer religion would come about as a natural expression of the inner spiritual life that we each enjoy.

But it also might take some courage, you know? Actually, probably about the same amount of courage that Jesus needed when he first endeavored to tell the world of the Father's love. In some ways, not a lot has changed in 2000 years. Not that any of us will be nailed to a tree, thank God; but still, there's no doubt that many powers and authorities in the world will resist our message with great tenacity -- as they have now for centuries.

Perhaps a good place to start is in our own thinking. I do consider myself part of a "movement" -- even if that movement seems nonexistent at times – and I invite anyone who reads this to consider whether they also would like to join in this "invisible" movement.

I also continue to labor in the fields of the Internet, because I see it as a safe place for people to come out of their closet -- with an anonymous handle perhaps -- and give expression to their spiritual convictions without danger of retribution or ostracism.

It's a good place to start. The pen is indeed still mightier than the sword. Blog away, dear friends. Let your voices be heard, in whatever ways you feel moved to express them. We are more powerful than we realize.

[Kay Ann Ray]

Dear Folks,

I believe that you know I have never been shy in stating that I am "a believer". I pray for God's Love to transform my soul into a Christ, in due time. I know that it would take a whole lot longer to get rid of my blocks and negative patterns without the help of God's Grace to elevate the quality and strength of my love.

I am a part of this spiritual movement; our power lies in our Love, and our ability to demonstrate it consistently in our daily living. It is an important lesson that we must first learn to love ourselves and accept the truth that we are God's beloved children. We cannot love others if we don't love ourselves.

There is a huge difference between humility and subservience. God, I'm sure, does not want us to grovel or feel unworthy of his wondrous blessings. But we can only receive his blessings when we accept them, open our hearts to his Love and to be grateful, appreciative and acknowledge how blessed we can be.

It becomes complicated and confusing because we try so hard to understand spiritual concepts with our reasoning powers, which is not possible to do. We first need to seek truth with our souls perceptions and our souls also can't understand spiritual truths until they have been developed in love or Love (purifying their natural love or becoming transformed by God's Divine Grace).

No wonder it is an internal spiritual path; until that path has been traveled, we will be ineffective on the outer pathway. We will not be able to demonstrate the teachings and therefore not able to show the Way to others.

As John of Love advised us, let's keep trying and praying and never give up! And we will eventually be able to heal ourselves and others. And become shining examples of God's Love!

I join the Club. I want to become an example of what God's Love can enable me to do in my earth life (and beyond).

God bless you and bring you happiness and fulfillment. Your sister in the Christ Spirit, Kathryn

[Arie]

"I join the Club. I want to become an example of what God's Love can enable me to do in my earth life (and beyond).
QUOTE".

Amen to that, dearest Kathryn! I too join the Club and ask our Father to fill my soul with His Love in order to become such a shining example of the enormous power and richness of His Divine Love.

I am grateful to God for all the support, inspiration and love that speak from the words of wonderful people like you, Kathryn, Doug, Amy and others.

I am grateful for being part of our movement. Let's keep things moving!

Love and blessings to you all,
Arie

[Mark]

Dear Doug,

As is often the case, I completely agree with you.

The larger issue is perhaps Truth itself. Oftentimes when I talk religion with people, they engage you on the basis of a process where everyone throws in their own truth; the group is then supposed to hash it all out amongst itself; and then, ideally, some 'median' truth will emerge. Essentially, the underlying premise is, that there is no one Truth; and, thus, that Truth is something to be negotiated, mutually; where success is measured in terms of everyone getting their fair share of 'points' in: like in a business meeting.

Only thing is: I already have the Truth. Ay, there's the rub; for how do you tell a person you no longer want to 'negotiate' the truth? Oftentimes I think: "I know you throw your baptism in the chalice from your sincere belief; but, not to be rude, or anything, I am not prepared to meet you half-way, even though society dictates that the correct thing for me to do now, is to 'respect' your belief, and to enter into negotiations with you."

Naturally this sounds all frightfully arrogant. So, I never say it out loud. But, after a fashion, I find myself becoming less tolerant; that is to say, I find myself increasingly less willing to haggle over the Truth. I also hate games. Even an attempt to meet a person half-way already borders on dripping fakeness. Like if I were to say, for instance, "I am sure your baptism is very important to you; and I respect that." Because, whereas it seems to reach out, in reality I consider that a very patronizing tone. Like the therapists who says: "I'm sure it feels very real to you;" you cannot get any more condescending than that! "fake respect" is what I call that.

What feels respectful, to me, is to say: "I am sorry you spent a life-long believing in the sacraments; but I'm afraid you were in error. Please, rejoice now, as I will tell you the real story." You cannot do that, of course, as they will ask you where you come off telling them what is truth; and, infuriated, they will want you to re-commit to the 'respectful' give-and-take process of negotiating the truth. And then you're back at square one.

So I write a book; that is my way out of the impasse. In my book I can be as unyielding, as uncompromising as I believe Truth demands, and still, society-wise, remain completely respectful of everyone else. Because the etiquette for book-writers is such, that you may tell your side, for the full 100%, and others are free to tell theirs.

When I clothe this in negative terms, I could say I am 'intolerant' for untruth; but, I believe it is Truth itself which allows of no variation; therefore, I'd like to call myself 'truthful', in seeking and in preaching. The latter first to myself, of course, when I came into the Truth, and my ego had to swallow its pride too, realizing I had been in error about many things. You could say that preaching to myself was most beneficial.

And so, I will put the Truth out there, for Fox Mulder to be found. I have no expectations for the book, btw. Naturally, I hope it will sell in the millions; but the most important thing for me is to have written it. That is, I want to fulfill my end of the bargain, so to speak, a full 100%; and then, what others do with that Truth is really up to them. As long as I can look back and know I did not have 'negotiate' the truth at every turn.

Your brother in Christ,

- Mark

[Amada Reza]

Hello dear brothers and sisters,

I just returned from a weekend in Berkeley where advocates of the Department of Peace campaign met to strategize how to make peace possible in our lives, individually and collectively.

One hundred intelligent and passionate people shared their thoughts and feelings about the election, their hopes and fears for our future, and I felt a deep sense of camaraderie, though few of us would agree on religion. Our common ground was an intense desire for peaceful and sustainable solutions to better ourselves as individuals, families, communities and nations. Within this greater context of our need for peace we found complete accord with one another on principles of true spirituality.

I can imagine that Jesus was popular among the people of his day because he was willing to discuss the problem of corruption and injustice and authoritatively offer that living a spiritual life is the only solution. This was the basic premise of the convention this weekend – peace needs to begin within ourselves for any real change to occur in our world.

It makes the most sense to me that an effective “outer religion” would meet our most pressing needs as individuals and collectively because it would be a natural byproduct of our inner spiritual life, and not just the product of the few who are loudest at espousing their version of “truth.” As Mark so eloquently describes, we can then speak of the kind of truth that works for all of us and over time does not fail us.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902), who played a leadership role in the women's rights movement, was quoted for her inspiration:

“The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls.”

I’m ready to work! :-)

All my love to you, dear family,

Amy

[InkyWhip]

Mark,

My experience over the years, especially this last year actually, on
Beliefnet has gone from one of 'wow, this is cool' to one of 'How
much longer are these people going to try to beat the rest of
the members into submission?' The percentage of folk who are
actually looking to change belief, versus, say, looking for a new
'outward' group to get together with, is very very small.

For the most part, people share their views on particular topics
without the openness that indicates any willingness to allow the
views of others to have any effect whatsoever. It wasn't initially
this way, but it has grown more and more so over time... I
suspect much in the same way that usenet was eventually
populated only by 'squatters' who sought to establish their own
little niche in cyberspace.

I'm definitely beginning to think that it is time to move on from
that venue, but I might give it one more try by attempting to
discuss such ideas as 'squatting' and 'establishing territory' to
see if I can get some discussion going about the underlying
processes...that might either free things up a bit, or make me
unwelcome enough that I won't mind moving on.

Inky

[Geoff]

Dear Inky,

The percentage of folk who are
actually looking to change belief, versus, say, looking for a new
'outward' group to get together with, is very very small.

I may be getting off topic here, with your assistance, but I gave up Beliefnet a few months ago. I came to the same conclusion. Squatters were everywhere. You could not have a decent discussion with a real seeker without getting squatted out.

Back to the topic of truth. I can understand where Mark is coming from, but I think it is more useful to try to find the truth in the other persons perspective. Since that is something they will talk about.

As to getting an outside version, I have been thinking about setting up a stall on Sunday in my local centre, alongside the Bahai guys. I probably have enough material. But it will cost money.

Much love,
Geoff.

[doug]

Hi All,

I realize that this is a mighty big "topic" -- or rather collection of topics. Each of the responses so far have underscored that fact. Some central thoughts occurring to me:

* The "outer church" usually works best with more than one person.

* That being true, it's also true that we, as individuals, can share our "inner church" even without the support of a temporal church or organization. It's simply a matter of sharing our truth.

* If a group of people are to work together as a "church" or "movement" or "Fellowship" they need to define some commonly held beliefs, precepts, or theories so that they are all more or less playing the same tune -- or at least playing in the same key ;)

* The applied principles of love and compassion (AKA Nonviolent Communication, or NVC) are what makes any human interaction successful. An individual or organization whose intent is to "teach love" would naturally want to EXCEL at applying these principles in their own conduct. We teach best by example.

Those are some general thoughts. As for specifics, well, as we like to say, "the angel is in the details."

I'm wondering if the problem at Belief.net (aside from the weight-loss ads) didn't start with the name "Belief." Perhaps if they'd named it "Experience.net" things would be a little different. Beliefs are a dime a dozen; experience is a little more hard to come by...

[doug]

I’m still trying to get a bead on what this thread was supposed to be about. There was some worthwhile thought in here somewhere… :)

It’s kind of like this. There are plenty of huge religious institutions in the world already, and it often seems that our DLF is comprised of folks who’ve emphatically decided that they want nothing to do with such institutions. Referring to the four stages of spiritual maturity posted in another thread, ( http://divine-love.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=705 ) we seem to be a collection of people primarily in stages three and four.

As a whole, we who’ve embraced the divine love teachings have outgrown our need for a highly structured framework for our spiritual life. This fits the description of a stage three person. But then when we move even farther along our spiritual path, into stage four, another shift happens, and once again there is a movement towards community.

On the surface there may be a resemblance to stage three religious institutions, but the dynamics of a stage four community is radically different. Such a group is all about empowerment of the individual, in contrast to the general conformity-oriented nature of stage two organizations. But unless the participants are clear about these different stages, there may be a reluctance to commit to any sort of stage four spiritual group or community, because of its superficial resemblance to a stage two “church.”

It is this reluctance that I think I’m trying to address here. I’ve mentioned it before – a sort of undertow that seems to pull the legs out from under any attempt to make the Divine Love Movement actually visible to the world at large. It’s as if many people in this movement feel that the purity of their spiritual experience might be compromised by “going public” with it.

I posted this thread in the Newcomers Christianity section because I had a sense that this entire subject has a strong tie-in with organized Christianity in particular. I realized that a “recovering Christian” might have a very difficult time connecting with this movement, because we seem to be so absolutely underground. I personally know of hundreds of avowed “Divine Love Christians” on the net (and that’s by no means a tally of how many there actually are on the net – or in the world), and yet we see posts from perhaps a dozen of them on this board.

It’s as if we were still meeting in the Roman catacombs…

“Do you know the secret password?… OK… Are you being followed?”

So, what I’m perhaps trying to describe here is my vision of a stage four “mystical Christian community.” To be a part of this community, you don’t need a membership certificate, and you don’t need to pay dues or offer tithes. You don’t need sumptuous church properties with comprehensive school and day-care facilities. You don’t need to surrender your free will to a charismatic leader.

But then again, you don’t need to hide you light under that proverbial bushel. Let that light shine for your brothers and sisters who are coming up behind you. Do it in whatever way is appropriate for you. This is “stage four” spiritual maturity. And as Peck emphasized in his description, stage four is actually only the beginning of the real spiritual journey…

[InkyWhip]

Doug,

Hmm, the password is Sofia, isn't it?

Anyhow, If I remember correctly, and I'm afraid that I may not,
stage 4 was equivalent to 'adulthood', and essentially
participation at a leadership-involvement level in the religious
community, rather than merely as a follower. This is, however,
in contrast to the level of awareness and interaction required for
Community, which most religious groups (and in this case I
think we are talking about those who have reached stage 4 as
far as psychospiritual development) have nonetheless failed to
attain.

I wonder if Peck actually considered the possibility that the 4-
stage model may have fallen short of a full description of the
possibilities of psychospiritual development. Supposedly an adult
'follows the rules' from a standpoint of understanding, rather than
merely by rote, as a child would. Nonetheless, the Rules are
considered supreme in church organizations, rather than the
people. As such, I wonder if there isn't a 'stage 5' to which many
of us have evolved...one which both understands the need for
communal interaction, but also sees the inherent limitations of
giving the rules of interaction and aspiration primacy over the
people to which they are supposed to apply.

I have a feeling that our dreamed of Community is, if
anything, an unheralded sixth level of psychospiritual attainment,
cycling back to communal interaction, but one at a higher level of
interaction, where the Rules need not be enforced, as they are
written in the hearts of the participants, where Love, attention,
respect etc. are shared honestly from the souls of the community
members with regard mainly for each other and the joy that is
found in the presence of another Love-filled soul.

I think a lot of us are really stage 5'ers who have yet to band
together to reach stage 6.

Inky

[Amada Reza]

Hello Inky,

You have a point that we are one or two models short; it seems that Peck's frame of reference of community was the more traditional Chrisitan fellowships that could be "home" for both stage II and stage IV persons.

As you suggest, it will require a few stage V folks to band together to create a new model. Hopefully, it will be a place where Mark may confidently discuss what is "true" without the necessity of "watering it down" but also provide a forum where we can confidently discuss the sticky issue of "what is true?" Doug said compassionate communication is a way we can successfully iron out those angelic details.
:-)

Much love to you,

Amy

[alyn]

Am incognito, at the moment....:cool:

;) I'm just learning about spiritual levels, haven't "taken in" the Peck post yet, still pondering on this...

But, I can understand the need for community and the hesitation to join and share spiritual experiences, struggles, growth, truths, etc. with others at the same time. I've never thought consciously about what Doug originally brought up in this thread, the inner/outer Christianity, I mean. Interesting.

Others have added more "food for thought", too. I do feel comfortable sharing here with everyone, but I can't say that I feel totally comfortable or share as much of my "journey" with other members of my family in Christ, although I love them just as dearly. It is worth asking the question, as you have here, why?

Love and hugs, alyn

[doug]

Hi Inky, Alyn, and All,

Yep, I was getting a little incognito there as well. I think that, although these four stages of spiritual development are very similar to stages of human psychological development, they aren't the same thing. In an ideal world it seems that they might develop at the same rate, but in our world that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

In our world we can find very successful, sophisticated, "mature looking" people who are actually still in stage one of their spiritual development.

And my sense is that the typical "mature adult" in Western society is squarely a stage two person. They place a high priority on being a functional member of their family, business, nation and church. They value the stability that these institutions give to their lives, and they fear "backsliding" into the lawlessness of stage one.

If we use the analogy of "chakras," then there are definitely more chakras after the fourth. But even in Hindu teaching, the opening of the fourth chakra -- the heart chakra -- is a big deal.

Even if the bulk of humanity were only to graduate to their third chakra (stage three), there would be a monumental upgrade in "world enlightenment." So I don't think of this stage four consciousness as being something commonplace, the equivalent of the attainment of "adulthood" in psychiatric terms. It's much more than that...

[harry]

Hi all,
After discovering the Divine Love I felt a need to socialize with a fresh new set of Christians. Several persons at a grocery store where I shop all attended a small (25 people) Baptist Church. I started attending their service and was warmly received. I find that Romans 5:5 fits in well with their thinking:

"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

I find that this verse became a spring board to discuss being born again and its benefits. I have shared that I daily ask God to through his Holy Spirit so fill my soul with His Divine Love that there remains no more room for anything else. They seem to be in accord with that. Many of them have some portion of the Divine Love already but think that its the Holy Spirit. That's okay for now. Mainly, I find that they can be taught to distinguish between their natural love and God's Love quite easily and enjoy discussing the wonderful transformations that result by having God's Love in their souls.

They are unaware that I am part of the Divine Love movement or that there even is such a thing as the Padgett messages. I am inserting a dependency on the Father's Love in their souls as the main thing. The end result is what matters. True, true,...they are carrying around a lot of unnecessary baggage but I remember my place and enjoy the fellowship.

love,
harry

[Kay Ann Ray]

Hi Folks,

I'm feeling a bit out-of-it this afternoon, but will try to join the conversation anyway. If there is a stage V and VI, it may be due to the inflowing of Divine Love! And, of course there would need to be higher levels if after we reach stage IV, we are at the beginning of our Spirirual Journey.

It is good to know that we can make progress and that we are making progress; I love having faith in the power of God's Grace to transform my soul into the Substance of Love. So I can be encouraged, even if I don't understand the "stages" or have the right words for "maturity" or "psychospiritual evolvement" I will continue accepting that I am a beloved child of God and trust that there are good gifts in store for me.

Keep up your good prayers and never give up. We are making a Heaven on earth for ourselves (and others, I feel, who learn from our examples) by having faith in the goodness of God, the fact that God is Love and that we can become Love.

God bless us each and every one. With love, your sister in the Christ Love, Kathryn

[InkyWhip]

Doug,

One off-topic post that fits in with another thread: Now you know
why they vote the way they do.

Next: I do think that stage 4 is a relatively high-functioning level...
and that only a few 'stage 5' folks who appeal across the
boundaries of religion are found per century...two of them from
the last century being Mother Theresa and Mohandas K. Ghandi.

As for our group, it is difficult to say. I know that I already dealt
with stage 3 and reached stage 4 before even finding the
Padgett messages. But the evolution from stage 4 to another
level didn't really begin, and probably hasn't really cemented
itself yet, until my 'Community' experience at Landmark just prior
to finding the messages. So the possibility of there being others
who, being relatively unchurched, have little in the way of formal
vehicles to share their insights is difficult to gauge.

One thing that seems to be true of Peck is that, as a psychologist,
he is interested in the results produced, and his history as a
taoist prior to picking up Christianity clearly shows through in the
times that he shares his paradoxical thinking.

By the way, I was really motivated to write about the
potential for stages 5 and six last night, not so much medium-
style, but just based on some really strong energy.

However, your comment about chakra correspondence is also
interesting. Caroline Myss goes into correspondence of illness and
the chakras, and my own persistent tendency toward sinus
infections and asthma both are essentially 5th chakra centered
or somewhere between the 5th and 6th...as if I am constricting
or restricting my own growth and energy from getting to that
next level...

Note: 7 chakras, 7 levels of heaven...coincidence? RIGHT!

Inky

[doug]

Richard, I do share your fascination with chakras, and know that there are probably worlds of beneficial knowledge on this topic waiting for us to discover. It seems that perhaps your guides are directing you to make some discoveries in that direction, but that is probably a topic that deserves its own discussion.

Regarding the discussion at hand, I think Peck was wise in describing only these four stages. One of the things I enjoy about Peck's writing is his ability to simplify complex subjects, and I think he succeeded wonderfully in this brief description of the stages of spiritual maturity. Perhaps, if we want to, we can continue our discussion over in the thread about "the stages of spiritual maturity (http://divine-love.org/forum/showthread.php?p=6214#post6214)".

There is one other aspect of these spiritual stages that's relevant to this thread, however, and Harry's post is an illustration of this. Peck notes that most successful religions have a knack for appealing simultaneously to both stage two and stage four people. Christianity is perhaps the most perfect example of this, since we realize that the Bible does contain crystal clear descriptions of the divine love and the divine path, mixed in amongst the dogma and fables.

And so, someone like Harry, who we'll consider a stage four sort of guy (or stage "equal to or larger than four" in Dr. Inky's vernacular ;) ) can, under the right circumstances, feel quite comfortable hanging out with a group of mainstream Christians. It's sometimes tricky business -- if anybody starts describing their beliefs in too much detail, things can get ugly -- but Harry is not the first person to describe the experience of being a member of a traditional Christian Church while privately following the divine love teachings in the Padgett messages. More than a few people have failed in such attempts, but it's not an impossibility.

It seems that being "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" is still very pertinent advice for those who wish to be effective disciples of Jesus...

:cool:

[InkyWhip]

Doug,

Well, that's just it, really. I suppose 'under the right
circumstances' one might feel comfortable hanging out with a
group of mainstream Christians, but I just don't.

I suppose part of the reason is that I am aware that the
absolute best that the entire 'church' can experience, as a body,
is pseudocommunity, being beholden to rules or interpretations
and perceptions of rules that are from another culture more than
two thousand years ago. I find some of the basic ideas not only
flawed but actually psychologically harmful and watching the
perpetuation of such ideas and standards is akin to watching a
mother who unknowingly feeds her children poison...ACK!

At the same time, there is the matter of being open to change,
and stage 2's and 4's just aren't. I'm a bit disappointed, but not
entirely surprised, since Peck was a 'stage 4' at the time of the
writing of the text, as presumably were those upon whom he
drew for his references, that he did not envision another level
above where he was at the time. Doing so is, naturally, quite
difficult...especially when one seems to be far above the
functional level of so many others.

However, in envisioning the world as a larger subset of functional
'Communities', I think Peck did begin to get to the level of seeing
that the stage 4 level of psychospiritual evolution was not
enough. True, he hasn't quite expressed it as a new level of
psychospiritual evolution, stage 5, but that isn't unexpected for
someone who is humble and may not be ready to say "Hey, it's
even better up here where I am."...or is it? One becomes, once
again, 'unchurched' since one does not have a religiously-focused
or based 'Community', and since all such attempts to form one
have met with failure.

I suppose I might feel a bit better about it if my original religion
were something where I may have an opportunity for some
input, though even the Methodist church rejected the advances
of a long-time minister to incorporate some of the teachings of
ACIM into services, etc.. (Jon Mundy) so even that idea may meet
with failure.

Otherwise, I think we are being encouraged to get to this more
communal level, where we form a new type of 'church'...as to
whether it would appeal to those of lower levels of spiritual
evolution, I think the answer would actually be yes, as long as
they are able to maintain being 'in Community' with the rest of
us...as to whether that is possible online versus in person, we
have already, I think, had that discussion.

Inky

[ccwk]

Hi Doug,

Good point “wise as serpents, and harmless as doves”. I love it! I think that this describes our Divine Love Movement with regards to our inner “private” religion and an outer public one. Though personally I don’t see too much of a difference. What I mean is that if you are nurturing the inner “religion”, the outer “religion” will follow (show). Our inner convictions are only as good as what we act out. Love is not love until you give it away, I heard someone say. You cannot grow unless you apply the love. This is why I cannot separate the inner from the outer.

I feel that there is a thin line between “turning the other cheek” and hiding your head in the ground like an ostrich when a reasoning mind of an observer is trying to ascertain one from the other. One is based on love and the other is based on fear. Only one’s individual heart can tell you where you stand and no one else can determine this for you.

I don’t think that some of us are “still in the closet” or keep our “outer Christianity” in private because of “fear” but some of us are driven by a “higher” motive, and that is love. And as you said, Harry is a perfect example of this (loved your post Harry!). Many of us accept our brothers and sisters regardless of any religion that they adhere to. We would rather listen to what they have to say than to tell them that they don’t know the “truth”. It is better to try and understand their present circumstances than to tell them that you know of a better way. It is difficult to demonstrate to a large audience the spreading of truth, when one is trying to live by example. Maybe you are feeling a little sad over our war and politics and you didn’t mean everything that you implied on your original post. I am just teasing you Doug. Smile. No, I don’t think that we are an “underground” religion. I just think that your love is so strong, that you wish that everyone heard about it (Divine Love and the Padgett Messages) and perceived its beauty. So I do understand how consumed and passionate you are on our seemingly slow progress.

As far as stages are concerned, sometimes I feel like I am in stage 1 and I blame everyone for our current state of affairs. Other times I feel like I am in stage 4 and I see that I am only responsible to give my love, by forgiving, understanding, and doing what is best within the scope of my power and will. I realize that I cannot solve the world’s problems; I can only overcome what is before me. And I have enough faith that what I can change in my life with God’s Love, will have its effect on the rest of the world and this will not hurt my ego and make me feel that the changes that I am making in my life are insignificant.

I must say though that everyone here on this tread has shared observations that are worthy of discussion and that are thought provoking but there are too many for me to respond to. And I believe that there is a lot to be learned from this discussion. I feel that people in general have a tendency or need to put things or fit things into a system or framework, and form a model if you will, to better understand things that are abstruse in order to quantify and explain things, like religion and things of a spiritual nature. This is why we have so many religions. Everyone has different thoughts and perceptions about truth. But as we have learned, we need to put our wonderful logical mind behind our souls and put our love before our actions and thoughts. And I think that this is where “meeting of the minds” will occur, when the soul is recognized, given its primacy and developed in God’s Love or the natural love (for those that don’t see the difference.)

In the past I have found that my spiritual discussions with individuals based on logic and reason have failed to bring us closer or give us unity of thought. This is because the reasoning mind can always make a valid case for itself. When I let my soul become part of the discussions, I felt a greater amount of community and acceptance and realized how little was said in words in order to reach to some agreement. I found this to be a giving and loving environment. Gee, I wonder if we received so much because we were more willing to give a listening ear and acceptance of each other than to tell everyone else how they should see it?

I realize that I have not shared anything deep and revealing or added value as many of you have done on this thread and that it appears like I have picked on dear Doug, whom I love and hold with deep respect, but since you were all sharing of yourselves, I just couldn’t help but to jump right in. Even though I feel a little intimidated by all of your wonderful intellects, I can feel your love and this gives me the courage to share with you. I love you all.

[doug]

Good morning everyone! And a lovely morning it is. :D

cc, you're correct in surmising that the recent presidential elections were largely the motivating force behind my original post in this thread. Ever since the election I've been reading articles about the huge role that the "religious right" and religion in general played in this election. And so my thinking was mainly about practical matters -- the outer religion.

And of course, in many ways the world outside us is infinitely more complicated than the world inside. My inner spiritual strategy can be described in about four words: Pray for God's Love. By comparison, discussions about the "outer church" seem darn near diabolical in their complexity and propensity for misunderstanding and disagreement. I can well understand why many of us would simply choose to not go there.

But then, along came this election, and we all saw, in the most concrete terms, the end result of allowing the existing Christian institutions to run our country. As I write this, agents of my government are murdering men and women and children in Iraq.

Honestly, I'd rather not think about it. It makes it hard to smile. But one of the things that the divine love has done within me is to increase my awareness, on many levels. I recognize that this is ultimately a good thing, even if there are many things, both within me and out in the world, that are painful to be aware of.

cc, when you refer to what I "implied" in my first post, I have the hunch that perhaps you were "hearing" an implication that wasn't actually there. Of course this is very easy to do when trying to have a conversation with printed words. And then of course I may be making assumptions about what you were trying to say, and on and on until we're all hopelessly lost :confused:

I suppose it would be easy to interpret my post as a criticism of those who "aren't doing enough" to share the truths of God's love with the world, but that really wasn't my intention that all. I was not trying to shame people into action, or twist their arms into a state of "enthusiasm."

Let me just try to clarify that I think we each should do exactly what we're moved to do -- no more, and no less.

I think my overriding sense, though, is that many people would like to do more to help bring a spiritual awakening to the world, but that they simply don't know where to begin. Sometimes it all seems so overwhelming and hopeless -- the world out there, and the "powers that be." It's certainly not even shocking for us to hear that 40% of the country didn't bother to vote in this last election -- that's just the "way it is."

In some ways what I'm trying to shine a light on here is simply the circuitry that connects our "inner church" with the outer world. As you point out, cc, there should really be no separation between the two, and, ultimately, there really can't. It's like breathing in breathing out -- there's really no separating them. But in the short run, it seems that sometimes people try.

This was in fact the entire theme of a speech by Marianne Williamson last year in Santa Cruz as she was working with the presidential campaign for Dennis Kucinich. She noted that, since the early seventies, many of the "political activists" of the sixties more or less gave up on politics, instead focusing almost entirely on their personal spiritual growth. Our rationale may have been that this inner spirituality is what "really matters," but Williamson also noted that this major shift came on the heels of the assassinations of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King. She felt this was no coincidence, but that the entire social/spiritual movement embodied by people like MLK had in fact been effectively "terrorized" into apathy.

The message from the (stage two) "status quo" segment of society had been clear: "if you actually start to succeed in effecting change, we will simply cut you down, so why even try?" And with that, we witnessed a widescale silencing of the political voice of progressive "liberal" America.

And so we witnessed in this last election the sad comedy of a presidential candidate who had begun his political career in the '60s as an antiwar activist, but who did not dare now call himself "antiwar." "Antiwar" was in fact used by his opponent as a derogatory term! As was that ultimate label of political suicide -- "liberal."

Now please, dear friends, don't interpret what I'm saying here as an endorsement of liberal politics or the Democratic Party, or any of that rot. I'm not trying to drag this conversation down into the muck of politics. But for me, the spiritual principles of nonviolence are self-evident and incontestable, and I make no apologies for stating them here. They are stated in the Bible, they're stated in the Padgett messages, and they've been reaffirmed over and over in contemporary channelings as well.

As Inky noted, our consideration of these four stages of spiritual maturity can give us some wonderful insight into WHY a person considering himself a Christian would want to spend billions of dollars murdering innocent people in a faraway land. This is entirely reasonable behavior from the point of view of a stage two consciousness. And so the only way it's going to change is if this country -- and this world -- begins to collectively extend its consciousness beyond stage two.

And how is that going to happen? Well, I don't claim to know, precisely, but my sense is that much of God's plan in this respect hinges on the spiritual principle of "higher help." We who are blessed to have discovered higher levels of consciousness will be moved by our love to offer help to those who are still struggling in earlier levels.

Let me emphatically state, though, that I'm not trying to define or describe how each of us will be moved to share our love in the world. For Harry, the strategy of joining a local Christian Church may be appealing. For Inky, the strategy of maintaining a blog may be what works. For cc, sharing his gifts as a medium may be the most appropriate manifestation of his "inner church." For Mark, writing that book may be just the ticket.

I hope you all understand, then, that I'm not intending these thoughts as criticisms or "shoulds" -- but only as encouragement to do (or keep doing) whatever it is you're moved to do. Many hands make light work, and with enough of us pushing, this boulder could actually move.

Or as Winston Churchill didn't say, "There's nothing to be hopeless about but hopelessness itself."

[InkyWhip]

Doug,

Well, then perhaps we are already approaching the
'problem' appropriately.

After all, the civil rights movement, as I have
learned along with my wife through her class at
Rutgers taught by a prominent civil rights historian
and figure, himself, Prof. Clement Price. was not
about Dr. King. In fact, it was really a predecessor
of the decentralized concept which led to the idea
of the internet. NAACP chapters in varioius cities
and areas took upon themselves plans of action,
sometimes without support or direction from the
national organization, but nonetheless effective in
picking targets and eroding the walls of segregation
and separation over a number of decades. If there
was one central figure it wasn't actually King, it
was the lawyer who won most of the trials in
which separtist policies were challenged, the man
who won Brown V. Board of Ed. Topeka Kan. and
the first black Chief Justice of the Supreme Court,
Thurgood Marshall.

The policy of adopting a central figure for people
to focus on, we are all too aware, is all too fraught
with danger to consider pursuing.

Our best hope is that some of the actions which
people are taking, at some point, get noticed
enough to expand our audience.

Inky

[doug]

>The policy of adopting a central figure for people
>to focus on, we are all too aware, is all too fraught
>with danger to consider pursuing.

My sense is that Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. were fully aware that their activities might lead to their early demise, and that was a conscious choice they each made. And so in some ways the real "tragedy" of their deaths was in the demoralizing effect they had on the people who looked up to them as leaders or figureheads of a movement.

Of course the civil rights and anitwar movements were not dependent on either of these people, they existed before them and continued after them, but I did resonate with what Williamson suggested, that these assassinations had a strong dampening effect on these movements for many years after.

But as you say, perhaps "we" did just the right thing by "going underground" to focus on our individual spiritual growth, because the end result is that we now perhaps have dozens or hundreds or thousands of "MLKs" lurking in our midst.

As Williamson noted in her speech, the next crop of spiritual leaders will not be "soloists" -- they will be a choir, and one not easily silenced.

We shall overcome :)

[doug]

Oh, speaking of "we"...

Amy mentioned to me yesterday that she didn't feel comfortable with my constant use of the word "we" in this discussion. She suggested that others in the discussion might feel much more comfortable if I phrased these thoughts in "I" terms. I had to agree with her, and so, without going back to edit all of my posts, I'd like to make clear (as I hinted at in the first sentence of this thread) that this is very much about me, my perceptions, and my feelings. Perhaps some who read this will resonate, perhaps not.

I also wanted to explain that part of my motivation for expressing these thoughts was the relatively large number of "guests" who visit this board on any given day. It seems that perhaps 1/10 of the visitors to this board are registered as members. And then perhaps 1/10 of the registered members regularly post here. So we have an interesting "tip of the iceberg" routine going on.

Perhaps this ratio is typical of Web boards in general -- I don't know. But I did want to say "Hello" to these guests, and say that it's really quite all right if you feel the need to remain silent right now. And it's also just fine if you want to speak up. Either way, this is a safe place for you to ask questions, speak your heart, or just silently read.

I do apologize for my inappropriate use of "we" language in these posts. It's a little tricky, linguistically, because I'm also trying to speak of trends and attitudes that -- to me -- seem to affect the divine love movement as a whole. But in the future I will try to phrase these comments as "I feel this, and perhaps others have felt this is well," because, as always, "your mileage may vary"... ;)

Doug

[alyn]

Hello,

Just wanted to share these words from the messages of White Eagle. (citation below) Similar words have been received in other messages that have said much the same thing in many different ways. Still, it is a good lesson to repeat: love yourself and don't be afraid to just be loving, as your heart moves you to be. We are more effective for change than we may comprehend at any moment.

Also, I thought that the message was related, in part, to the discussion about getting our "inner and outer" in sync, so to speak. Words of encouragement, although delivered in a "plain speaking", straightforward, style. :) I don't know the context of this message. I suspect it is a bit of a larger message, but there is a complete thought/ meaning in this smaller part, too.


WHEN SHADOWS GROUP AROUND YOU

As a servant of the Christ you must never lack courage. It is a temptation to do so, for the shadows group around you and tempt you to be weary, to have no confidence; they tempt you to say, ' I am no use,' and to have what you call an inferiority complex. Never doubt the power of God to work through you. To think you are no good is to doubt God's power.

http://www.whiteagle.org/quiet_mind.htm

The language is different in some ways. I don't perceive us as servants but as brothers and sisters within/part of the Christ spirit. The intention is, I think, the same--to refer to someone who has prayed for and received the Divine Love and is now part of the Christ spirit, wanting to spread this spirit, which some refer to as work, or serving her/his sisters and brothers.

As has been said in this thread, whatever we are moved to do, it is important that we do it no matter that we may think what we do is "of no use". :)

love and hugs,
alyn

[Arie]

That's what I like about you people so much, Doug: you are always so much aware of how you might come across and you always seem to spend a lot of thoughts on how to be as loving and open-minded as possible towards any people participating in the discussions. It never occurred to me that you have been using "we" so often instead of "I". As far as I am concerned I would say: no worries, you come across fine and I never feel uncomfortable.

Sometimes I only feel a little frustrated about not being able to join such high intellectual discussions, either because of lack of time or because of lack of 'intellectual drive' or whatever. But I cannot resist reading it all, because it happens again and again that somebody says something wonderful and loving that just makes my day. Like what Wiliamson said about this choir of spiritual leaders as opposed to soloists. That's a great picture for me as a passionate musician and choir-singer! Just imagine all these spiritually highly developed people actually acting together like in a choir. What an enormous power that would give, realising that the power of music has so much in common, or how should I say: is so strongly related to the power of the Divine Love.

Thank you Alyn for sharing this text from White Eagle: "Never doubt the power of God to work through you. To think you are no good is to doubt God's power." What a great thing to realise. No matter how exactly we work out our outer religion, in our inner religion this Great Power of Love is working, growing and some day that will change everything and bring it all to the good end that we may expect to come. Just keep praying, keep praying, keep praying...

Much Love to you all,
Arie

[jrm13]

I, for one, am so happy to belong to God's Kingdom and on this board i can read thoughts from many loving souls!! Hallelujah! Doug O pardon the personal remark but one of your many gifts is the power of persuasion and inspiration! Another is your wonderful sense of dry humor! Your posts always make me cackle lol! I have gone into many many churches in my lifetime and I will continue to go into any church that praises His Name! Even if they mistakenly think His name is Jesus lol. God still sends down the love1 Isn't He a good God?? much peace and love

[jrm13]

o forgive me one last ps on this. I occasionally attend a Unity church on Sunday. There is much to love about this movement. They are anti-war, and embrace all denominations and lifestyles. In their churches you will see many blacks and whites, and many gays and straights. They publish a lovely little booklet entited Daily Word .There is a little error perhaps (I'm trying to be charitable here when I use the word little) in their thinking re: the 'God within' but nonetheless much to love about their movement and services. I find that praying with others for Divine Love is very powerful and even though I am criticized and chastised for going to 'regular churches' by some, it is very enjoyable and no doubt something that I will do the rest of my life down here!

[DTNguyen]

Dear Jrm,

I don't see any problem in whatsoever if you want to be with a church group of brothers and sisters who are sharing their love for one another and for God even in their own conditions and beliefs. This does not mean that we are more perfect or know more truth than they do. It is not about that. The important thing is that you are there to share your love with them and them with you. We are all children of God. As we know, the mind is often judgmental and argumentative when the soul is not yet full of love to a certain degree. And what good is this love if it cannot be given to share with others.

Your brother in Christ,

[Sandy]

Yeah, why should anybody criticize a desire to go to a church and pray for Divine Love together with other souls open to yearn for and receive it ?? It`s a wonderful thing. And by the way, wasn`t James Padgett encouraged also by the Angels to join some church services and enjoy the atmosphere of love there ?

In fact after the last annual gathering W.A. and Pat took a bunch of us to a unity church sunday service, and I thought it was pretty inspiring. I loved the music there and particularly enjoyed the meditation prior to the actual service. The sermon was pretty loving, too. Too bad ; so far I haven`t found a church in the area where I live which offers as loving and inspiring services. But I`ll keep looking ...

Much Love to you all,
Sandy

[Kay Ann Ray]

Our dear brother in Christ, Harry, has a unique way of attending orthodox church services (and perhaps making them more to his liking), he has the angels messages printed out on small papers placed in his Bible, so as others observe him reading his Bible, they can't be offended; what a good Christian the man is, right! And of course we do know that's true, since God's Divine Love activates the Christ Potential in our souls.

Many people are uplifted by the spiritual music and songs heard in worship services; and, of course, every participant is responsible for centering their thoughts on God and spiritual practices. It seems to be a rule that 'we get an equal amount of good out of something as compared to the good (intentions) that we put into it.'

As we become more divine, people will be able to sense our loving emanations and feel uplifted in our presence. How marvelous is that! Rev. N.V. Peal would direct prayers to someone sitting ahead of him on a bus, and pretty soon the person would start rubbing his neck! I see this as evidence that the loving spiritual energy from Rev. Peal's prayer were felt by that person.

God bless you, each and every one! Have a lovely day, Kathryn

[jrm13]

As far as politics go, you would be hard-pressed to find someone more politically oriented than myself. I have studied American politics for a long time! Even when I was in Canada I studied American politics, writing my thesis on Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew and their criminal activities!lol. I have finally concluded that politics are not the answer, God is. Here's what Mother Teresa said when asked which party she belonged to. 'I belong to neither for to belong to one means I am against the other and I wish to be against no one. I am for God and all His children, especially the poor and the sick.' Wow! I'm with Mother Teresa!

[Dan Bowman]

jrm (may I use your real name when posting?)

I enjoy your many posts and proactivity in this forum. Your sentient awareness of what is truly important strikes me as someone who has come along way in their possession of the Father's Love. It's a joy to become re-acquainted with you.

Dan Bowman

[w.a. sowle]

hi DLF family
i too have been interested in politics, and religions, for many years. it has been my observation that this is the way our leaders have of dividing and controlling us.
i told our family last june at our retreat, that i could no longer call myself a christian, because that was seperating me from all the rest of the faiths on earth. i no longer call myself an usa citizen, but a world citizen as a christ child. blessings filled with love. wa

[jrm13]

wow Dan ,thank you for that, I needed that lol! My full name is john r melmer but i went under the name of blue jay when i met you and your wife. I had long hair, long leather boots and hippie garb I'm surprised you cant remember me ahahhahaha. I published a newspaper called new age dawn.I can remember the street name of the corner offices where we all hung out and I lived in the fringe houses lol, the houses where they put the wierdest of the wierd lol. I hung out a lot with the Wileys, Dr. Mark Kramer, Carol Stokes, Deb HOlmes, Nancy Krupp, George S, Kathryn and Amy were my favs. But I remember you clearly. A litlle cherub with glasses always smiling. a very nice man!! and i remember your wife at the time carolyn, beautiful smile! you may address me however you choose. so nice to see us all coming back together dont you think. what a beautiful family was the family of mankind. o remember nancy defelice i liked her too, nudge nudge wink wink lol.and the wallaces and o wow lets try to remember them all lol. greg boster was nice, he always had a nice hug and kiss for us lol.o i lived with ken and tangie rowland too, i visited tangie long after the family split up. the boltonst steven (God he was so niceeeeeeeeeeee lol) his brother his brothers wife cant think of her name, help me out the gurl with all the hair and the nice smile, God there were so many beautiful souls in that family!!!!!!!!!

[JustLis]

I’m still trying to get a bead on what this thread was supposed to be about. There was some worthwhile thought in here somewhere… :)

It may be because it seems to me that you're addressing a large number of interrelated issues, any of which can (and has) promote extensive discussion, but none of which can resolve the underlying issues alone....

It’s kind of like this. There are plenty of huge religious institutions in the world already, and it often seems that our DLF is comprised of folks who’ve emphatically decided that they want nothing to do with such institutions.

I was impressed at the first meeting I attended that the members had come from so many different religious traditions -- Roman Catholic, Jewish, several different Protestant faiths. It seemed that some were still attending their local churches, while others were not, and yet others had rejected the tenets of their former churches. I'm not sure if perhaps there is a difference in the TYPE of people who have joined the Divine Love Movement, in terms of having a greater strength or propensity to step away from a church likely passed down from family members. Or perhaps they tend to be more likely to recognize something is missing from their religious experience and more likely to reach out to explore other answers. Or perhaps they are just more individualistic and less inclined to be members of large organizations like churches. I don't know, Doug -- just exploring ideas.

Referring to the four stages of spiritual maturity posted in another thread, we seem to be a collection of people primarily in stages three and four.

It could be, Doug. I've read further down the thread where discussions of a 5th or 6th stage were proposed. This could also be true. But I wonder if it might be something much more straightforward. Actually, two different things.

First, the nature of Divine Love itself is a very powerful, very personal thing. Because it involves the development of a personal relationship with one's God, the focus is inward. But I also see your hope for developing a stronger sense of unified community, and spreading the word of your truth, both of which focus outward. What I have found so appealing about this movement's approach is that you all share so openly of yourselves and your experiences, and you explain them as your truth, and yet you don't insist that anyone must adopt them as THEIR truth upon pain of eternal death.... And I think that openness and honesty and acceptance are very refreshing, given the spiritual climate among some religions, especially now.... But because you're not using tactics of intimidating or scaring people into joining you, and are instead appealing to their intellect and their souls, it may take more time and be more subtle than the larger numbers that you might hope to see....

And second, it is technology that has brought all of us together, but distance that is keeping us apart. Literally, most people who post here seem to be "lone wolves" geographically, and it's very difficult to be a one-person movement.

As a whole, we who’ve embraced the divine love teachings have outgrown our need for a highly structured framework for our spiritual life. This fits the description of a stage three person. But then when we move even farther along our spiritual path, into stage four, another shift happens, and once again there is a movement towards community.

I don't know, Doug. I suspect that people here are in a variety of different stages. I recall one person in particular saying that he had no interest in being part of a community as in a church, but was primarily interested in just sharing information and learning more. Perhaps the message boards, Paltalk, and an annual meeting are as much community as some would like to have. Some may not even want that much. Some want more. It's hard to envision how you can create a tighter sense of community when dealing with the reality that members are literally scattered around the world.

On the surface there may be a resemblance to stage three religious institutions, but the dynamics of a stage four community is radically different. Such a group is all about empowerment of the individual, in contrast to the general conformity-oriented nature of stage two organizations. But unless the participants are clear about these different stages, there may be a reluctance to commit to any sort of stage four spiritual group or community, because of its superficial resemblance to a stage two “church.”

I remember discussing those stages with you and being surprised by how accurate a lot of the progression sounded. But what you've addressed above seems to fit right in with what I think may well be happening. Because the Divine Love teachings truly do focus in on empowering the individual in his/her quest for the Divine Love of God, even if a "church" were possible, would it only serve a function of aiding in that personal quest and spreading the word to others?

It is this reluctance that I think I’m trying to address here. I’ve mentioned it before – a sort of undertow that seems to pull the legs out from under any attempt to make the Divine Love Movement actually visible to the world at large. It’s as if many people in this movement feel that the purity of their spiritual experience might be compromised by “going public” with it.

I don't think that's probably it, Doug. People here have been very open about their own spiritual experiences. It may very well be an issue of public acceptance, particularly in the intolerant climate the US has been experiencing recently. It may, again, also be related to the fact that most people truly are alone where they are, and not in a place where a one-person campaign would be effective. But again, I suspect the reason for many is that this truly is an inward mission, and while people have been generous in helping others to learn about their path, their primary mission is inward. Perhaps the ministers of the church would feel a stronger pull to spread the word, as their interests and studies clearly lead them in that direction. But the individual members may be more focused on their own spiritual development, which makes sense to me....

I posted this thread in the Newcomers Christianity section because I had a sense that this entire subject has a strong tie-in with organized Christianity in particular. I realized that a “recovering Christian” might have a very difficult time connecting with this movement, because we seem to be so absolutely underground.

I think it's likely a bit more difficult to find a small movement, and even more difficult to gain acceptance in communities where "fire and brimstone" Christian teachings seem to dominate. But I don't envision you as being "underground"....

I personally know of hundreds of avowed “Divine Love Christians” on the net (and that’s by no means a tally of how many there actually are on the net – or in the world), and yet we see posts from perhaps a dozen of them on this board.

I have found this to be the case on all the boards I've participated in, Doug. Far more viewers than posters. I don't think that's an indictment of the movement as much as I'd look at it as a positive thing, that people are interested in your website and informing themselves of what you're about. That's another way of spreading the word, too. :-)

So, what I’m perhaps trying to describe here is my vision of a stage four “mystical Christian community.” To be a part of this community, you don’t need a membership certificate, and you don’t need to pay dues or offer tithes. You don’t need sumptuous church properties with comprehensive school and day-care facilities. You don’t need to surrender your free will to a charismatic leader.

And again, this is what I find so appealing about the Divine Love Movement. You invite people to your community, you share your messages of love and peace, you explain your own experiences with the Divine Love and share how readers can achieve their own loving relationship with God, and then you leave the decision to them, as to whether and how to go about achieving that goal. No one HAS to do anything, yet people with knowledge and experience are here to guide and help and support those who are looking for answers.

But then again, you don’t need to hide you light under that proverbial bushel. Let that light shine for your brothers and sisters who are coming up behind you. Do it in whatever way is appropriate for you. This is “stage four” spiritual maturity. And as Peck emphasized in his description, stage four is actually only the beginning of the real spiritual journey.

:-) I see members doing that very thing here.... Doug, is it possible to try to explain more specifically what you're hoping members will do? I saw some suggestions toward the end of what you know people are doing (cc's mediumistic work, Mark's book), but I'm still not quite sure what you're really looking for in this community. I can tell this means a great deal to you, and I want to understand what you're envisioning.

Lis

[doug]

Doug, is it possible to try to explain more specifically what you're hoping members will do? I saw some suggestions toward the end of what you know people are doing (cc's mediumistic work, Mark's book), but I'm still not quite sure what you're really looking for in this community. I can tell this means a great deal to you, and I want to understand what you're envisioning.
Lis

Thanks for that very thoughtful response, Lisa. As I read it, the main thought that occurred to me was that perhaps I was more addressing the "ministers" within the DLF movement, rather those who consider themselves "members."

Of course, in this movement, the line between the two is often very fine, perhaps even to the point of being nonexistent. Which I guess is why I didn't make that distinction in my posts. But the fact is that some participants in this forum have taken the step of becoming ordained ministers in one of the several churches founded around the divine love teachings, and some have perhaps even heard a calling to preach the divine love gospel as a "full-time job."

It is for each of us to listen within to the promptings of our own heart, and our own spiritual guidance, to know what part we can play in the eventual transformation of this world into the "Kingdom of Heaven." Of course we all know that that transformation must begin within our own soul, but we also know that our soul's transformation will eventually and inevitably begin to manifest itself in our outer world. I guess all I'm saying is that we each have the freedom and responsibility to decide how that manifestation will unfold.

Perhaps this is all just my clumsy attempt at being a cheerleader, or pep-talker, or something. I know there are some people who have a wonderful talent for doing this -- maybe we can hire Anthony Robbins to come talk to us...

:cool:

[JustLis]

:-)

Thanks, Doug.... What you're saying makes a lot of sense.... And every group needs a cheerleader / supporter / visionary of what the community might grow to become.... You're a great one. :-)

Lis

[Kay Ann Ray]

Dear Sincere Seekers of God's Love and Divine Truths,

I feel that it is a good question to ask, 'What is the goal of our Divine Love Fellowship?'

Dan mentioned that he notices that we often have guests viewing our DLF Board. So this would be an opportunity for us to 'exemplify' the Truths of God's wondrous Divine Love through our writings and interchanges with one another.

Since we understand that 'By our fruits, we shall become known,' then we have the privilege to show how God's wondrous, transforming Love residing in our souls has the power to elevate our condition to that of divine beings.

I have learned that as I continue to focus my desires on developing my spiritual nature, by seeking truth with soulful longings, desiring to do God's will in my life, and praying for God's Divine Love to flow into my soul, I will continue to progress. I gain greater peace in my heart. I have more acceptance of fellow human beings.

The only person we can change is ourself. If we want the world to be a better place, it is up to us to exemplify the changes we wish to see become manifest in the world. The dear souls who are angry and hateful are already suffering, in my opinion, and do not need to have others display anger toward them for being angry, that only intensifes the problem.

I want to come into closer accord with God's will of Love for me and the world. I can bring myself into greater harmony with God's will by continuing to Pray for the Grace of Divine Love to flow into my soul. As I elevate my condition of Love, I will demonstrate more love toward others and be enabled to put my love into everything I do.

I pray for peace in the world; I pray for the needs of the suffering to be met. I hope and pray that people will want to elevate their spiritual conditions and realize that peace can be attained only through peaceful means.

I am only one person, but I want to send as much love into the world as I possibly can. I will be able to send more Love out to Humanity and Earth Mother as I receive more of God's Divine Love into my soul.

God bless you, each and every one. We cannot love others more than we love ourselves. God Loves You, just as you are right now. Learn to love yourself and accept the inate goodness of your soul given to you by your Creator.

Together with the help of God's transforming Love, we can build God's Kingdon of Love upon this earth.

Have a wondrous and fulfilling year ahead.

Your friend and sister in the Christ Spirit, Kathryn

[Dan Bowman]

Kathryn,

When I read your post, the first word that jumped out was Passion. The Passion with which you wrote feels so contagious as the message of loving oneself is so fundamental in our progression and happiness.

When I've reflected this year on themes of various topics of discussions, worthiness is also a word that jumps out. The importance of loving oneself is so foundational to natural and divine progression and appears to be the key that unlocks our happiness.

On the natural level, I find myself looking for reasons to love myself which is usually associated with something I've accomplished that gives me esteem. Because this self image is performance driven I find myself coming up short if I haven't accomplished a certain goal such as losing some weight or overcoming a bad habit. Even on higher natural levels my self love appears to be tied to what I do or don't do such as if I'm being loving with others, charitable or kind.

That's what I love so much about the Divine Love. My self love is not driven by what I do, rather by what God is doing to my sense of self through the indwelling of the Divine Love in my soul. Without the power of the Divine Love to overcome my prior feelings of unworthiness, my sucess at progression in the natural love felt rather hopeless. This made me a very good candidate for the Divine Love as it's clear to me the Divine Love is the advantage that we need at overcoming low self esteem & unworthiness.

As I said before, the influence & presense of the Divine Love is critical to the eventual harmony of the universe & the Kingdom of God upon the earth. Without the power & influence of the Divine Love, natural love cannot make it on it's own. We are the pioneers of a new society upon this earth & though our numbers may never dominate, the power of God's Love shining through us will. We are the light of the world, as God's light shines through the darkness. Let Your Light So Shine.

Love,

Dan